Rescued from Memory Hole: “Captain America, Traitor?” – The Complete Thread

In the spirit of thoroughness, and since we’re still scratching our heads on this one, the BRC is going to take the opportunity to revisit a memory-holed LGF thread we featured back in October 2010, and update everyone with the complete text and all 79 comments from long-lost #6276.

First, the original screencap I grabbed from the wayback machine (while it was still unblocked by Johnson):

And now, we present the complete thread, as nabbed by ISTE while CJ was asleep at the switch:

previous entry:
Peace Creeps Find New Low
current weblog next entry:
A Vigorous Diplomatic Exchange
4/16/2003: Captain America, Traitor?

I don’t know why this latest evidence of American leftist cultural insanity gets under my skin so much. When I was a kid, my favorite comic books were the Fantastic Four, Spiderman, and the X-Men, with Captain America coming in fourth.

But Captain America was always supposed to represent the best about patriotic America; a strong hero committed to protecting the United States from harm and a role model for kids, showing them it was cool to be proud of their country. Even though he wasn’t my favorite (probably because he didn’t have any superpowers; I was into superpowers), I always looked forward to reading his book. (After devouring Spiderman, of course.)

I don’t read comics any more, but it’s a nasty little shock to find that Captain America has now been transformed into a self-hating, America-bashing wimp who spends most of his time fighting his own government and understanding the motivations of terrorists: Captain America, Traitor? (Hat tip: NTropy.)

In January, 2003, the company published Truth — Red, White and Black, a prequel to the original Captain America story. That classic tale from 1941 focused on Steve Rogers, a blond-haired weakling who, after rejection for military service, volunteers for a secret government program. Scientists inject him with “super soldier” serum, producing a muscular fighting machine.

In the new addition to the yarn, we learn that the government first tested the formula on unsuspecting black soldiers, employed as human guinea pigs. The evil Army scientist in the comic baldly declares: “It’s necessary to see if our methods apply to the inferior races.” White commanders separate African-American GI’s into two groups, one of which speeds away on locked trucks (like Nazi train transports) to a secret laboratory, while the remaining soldiers face mass murder from squadrons of machine gunners (like Nazi Einsatzgruppen). The sadistic experimentation on the survivors (in the PG-rated series) includes horrific panels showing bodies exploding, and laboratory walls splattered with blood. The recent comic unequivocally suggests a heavy-handed analogy to the death-camp experiments of Dr. Mengele.

Joe Quesada, editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics, cheerfully acknowledges the holocaust echoes. “There are moments in our history that may not have been our shining glory,” he told me. “We’ve done things in our history that aren’t right to our own citizens.” He specifically cited the infamous Tuskegee experiment, in which medical researchers left syphilitic black patients untreated in order to study effects of the disease. “The beauty of America is that we can tell these stories and learn from our mistakes and move on.” The messages he hopes to convey to children who read the comics include “the need to learn racial tolerance and that peace is the best way to go, wherever possible.”

This is really sad and stupid. And disturbing, because this stuff greatly influences young boys—and what they’re learning from this new Captain UnAmerican is to distrust and hate their own country.

posted by Charles at 5:05 PM PST
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replies: 79 comments
Comments are open and unmoderated, although obscene or abusive remarks may be deleted. Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.

#1 kn  4/16/2003 05:11PM PST
does it have the same characters as Capt America?

#2 trevalyan  4/16/2003 05:11PM PST
You have got to be shitting me.Next thing you know, Green Skull the Islamic Terror Master will sit down for a cup of tea with Captain is wrong with our society…

#3 Chris  4/16/2003 05:11PM PST
Read about this coming out (“soon”) some time ago. (Or maybe war-time has just dragged for the last year and I lost track…) Sick isn’t it?

#4 kn  4/16/2003 05:13PM PST
nevermind, i see, its a whole separate series, but the original has gone to hell as well

#5 Emmett  4/16/2003 05:18PM PST
Well, isn’t Joe Quesada the smug, self-congratulatory little moralizer.But truly, with Playstations, the X-Men, and Spidey, does any body even read lame-ass Captain America anymore? I thought it was stupid in 1969 when I was nine years old and reading comic books.

#6 NoOneImportant  4/16/2003 05:19PM PST
So much for looking to entertainment to relax and get away from politics for a while… I wonder what’s next?

#7 packsoldier  4/16/2003 05:22PM PST
Pat Buchanan is an idiot, but he was right about one thing. There IS a culture war going on in this country and the future of America hinges on the outcome.

#8 piglet  4/16/2003 05:26PM PST
Oh, somebody tell me that they changed the name of the Jewish scientist that invented the “super soldier formula.”

#9 Craig  4/16/2003 05:29PM PST
What happened? Did Ted Turner take over the comic? I’ll bet he needed an update to his and Hanoi Jane’s Captain Planet franchise of degrading capitalism and democracy.

#10 Aitch748  4/16/2003 05:32PM PST
#2 Trevalyan:Or worse — the Green Skull turns out to be the one who needs to be “understood,” and Captain America turns out to be the eternally guilty red-white-and-blue thug.Disgusting. And I say this as someone who counted himself as very much the liberal just fifteen years ago.

#11 Canadian Pork  4/16/2003 05:37PM PST
Lets hope they don’t touch any other comic booksRichie Rich, the poor little rich kid will become Capitalist Pig Boy Who Hordes Wealth While Everyone Else Starves

#12 Model4  4/16/2003 05:44PM PST
How horrible. I do agree the sins of the past need to be studied and explored, but in the proper context, in the proper venue, and at the proper time in a kid’s life. This fails all three. Nothing of the magnitude mentioned happened at that time in our nation, or if it did (tinfoil hat time) it certainly wasn’t with the approval of the full US government, as the piece seems to imply.That this will increase “racial tolerance” is a naked lie. It promotes hatred and balkanization instead of reconciling it. The “America/Jews/Israel/Christians = Nazis” libel is disgusting and harmful. This just serves to sow mistrust based on falsehoods. It is child abuse.Now the Cap I remember was a pretty “simple” character, therefore appealing to younger readers. This is probably marketed off to the side away from those readers, but it still is amazing. You just don’t mess with the origins of a superhero lightly, as you risk doing much more harm to the enjoyment of the story, past and future. People who’ve never been comic geeks may not realize it, but it does matter in the context of just about everything that happens. Seems like they went miles out of their way to pull this stunt. And who the hell wants their kid reading a comic where the hero can’t pass a black man on the street without collapsing into the fetal position and sobbing uncontrollably?And since I’ve already gone on far too long, I’ll say that WWII is something the youth of Allied countries should read about with pride and awe. The clear lesson of the need to do the right thing and the consequences of inaction in the face of evil is a powerful lesson, as is the price of freedom and how quickly it can be lost. Trying to tarnish this aspect of Cap’s history is shameful. The only good that can come from this is if they offed his goober side-kick 😛

#13 Mad Texan  4/16/2003 05:45PM PST
I read this crap the day it was online. Taking a character with DECADES of history behind it and doing this? Never a huge fan of Captain America but as a Marvel Universe fan, he was part of my life for a long time if only in a supporting role.Captain America must have already been declining for them to do this. If it was Spiderman, X-Men, Fantastic Four, Iron Man or the Hulk there would be a huge uproar.

#14 Geepers  4/16/2003 05:47PM PST
Why do I get the feeling after this comic book series bombs (10 year old boy aren’t looking for touchy-feely moral equivelancing,) our Mr. Quesada will claim its due to Ashcroft’s oppesion.

#15 Cowgirl Carrie  4/16/2003 05:47PM PST
#11 CanadianRichie Rich already is…that’s what all those Hollywood celebs were protesting…”no capitalism! No capitalism!” *ring* “Oh, you’ll pay me $15 mill to make another movie to promote fast expensive cars and diet supplements? Okay, that sounds good.” *click* “No capitalism!”

#16 malory  4/16/2003 05:48PM PST
OT: Very interesting article via Instapundit.

#17 John O’Brien  4/16/2003 05:57PM PST
This is such a shame. I can’t understand the self hate that’s going around anymore. The guy who writes this comic ought to spare the rest of us.

#18 Glen Wishard  4/16/2003 06:01PM PST
piglet –

… somebody tell me that they changed the name of the Jewish scientist that invented the “super soldier formula.”

As a matter of fact, no they didn’t:

The writer, Robert Morales, has apparently borrowed a page from the real history of the infamous Tuskegee experiments, and begun with the premise that the tall, blond Steve Rogers could not have been Professor Reinstein’s first guinea pig. The fictional idea behind the series is that a supersoldier serum was tested first on black soldiers, who were then pushed aside when the time arrived for the Army to select a blond champion.

Yes, a fiendish Jewish doctor who experiments on blacks. You know, like the Jewish doctor who invented AIDS. Or the Jewish doctors that tried to assassinate Josef Stalin!

#19 Clutch  4/16/2003 06:01PM PST
#16 maloryAnother thing I found interesting on that site is that ol’ Kahil is still spittin’ out cartoons from beyond the grave… ;-)But then the same thing could be said about Charles Schultz…

#20 Kylaer  4/16/2003 06:21PM PST
The only comic I read when I was younger was G.I. Joe. Still, this is disturbing; they shouldn’t throw this morally-misfired B.S. at children.

#21 Oggie Ben Doggie  4/16/2003 06:30PM PST
Old news, boys. In 1993 or so, Wolverine was digging up more of his
memory to discover he had been created as a Cold War weapon.
(Well, the claw implantations, anyway.) Marvel’s been doing to
Cold War cynic routine at least since 93.

#22 NTropy  4/16/2003 06:33PM PST
Thanks for the hat tip Charles. I was fortunate enough to be made aware of it at a blog operated by a vet and Macintosh advocate Jesse Brown at Alternate Voice.

#23 trevalyan  4/16/2003 06:37PM PST
OBD (#21):Hell, I was PLEASED to see that the Canadian government of the X-Men universe took the war seriously enough to, er, build a team of superheroes to fight the Commies. Worth a shot, I say. :)This whole “treating blacks like Mengele did” stuff is SIIIIIIICK. It crosses a line. Mengele is occupying a place in hell that is too harsh for even Arafat and Hussein. Didn’t the writers think how outright OFFENSIVE this would be, to people who, G-d forbid, consider Nazi eugenics a special variety of evil?? That, after Jesse Owens, maybe the evil American government wouldn’t give a shit what colour the soldier who brought down Hitler would be?Is the world morphing into Europe, or what??

#24 T.L. James  4/16/2003 06:43PM PST

“The beauty of America is that we can tell these stories and learn from our mistakes and move on.”

The problem is, folks like these are too invested in keeping those wounds open and festering to ever allow us to “learn from our mistakes”.

We’ve learned from our mistakes. We’ve moved on. Too bad the saintly folk who put out this kind of crap can’t practice what they preach to the rest of us.

#25 T.L. James  4/16/2003 06:48PM PST
Of course, a couple of years ago there was a famous character who “came out” (I forget which one it was). I blogged (or rather, proto-blogged, since blogging wasn’t “blogging” then) something about this, expressing my shock that a comic book would tackle something so controversial.I was informed by a reader that no, this is nothing at all unusual, that it was common for strips to try something sensationalistic when the character had reached a creative dead-end. Doing so breathes life into the character (and thus, the franchi$e), at least temporarily.Since I have read precisely one non-Mad-type comic book in my life, I have no idea if this is true, but it made sense to me. So, maybe these guys are just doing this purely for the shock value (which doesn’t make it any less shameful).

#26 Celissa  4/16/2003 06:49PM PST
#19Cute cartoon, eh?Nice articles too.I’ve just stopped reading anything remotely Arab. Even the publications considered “moderate” are so full of anti-American and anti-Semitic bile that it just sickens me.Until the Arab press can prove that it wants to report truth, it has no credibility as far as I’m concerned.

#27 T.L. James  4/16/2003 06:57PM PST
#9: Didn’t you know? Captain Planet has been supplanted by the Tranzi Superhero Extraordinaire:
Faster than a speeding Brussels edict!
Able to arrange committees to make tentative recommendations in a single bound!

#28 John  4/16/2003 07:00PM PST
Not really that suprising — Marvel’s godfather, Stan Lee, was a major Bill Clinton supporter, and if you go on some of the comic book websites, you’ll find many people parroting back Michael Moore-like lines about “Bush is evil/dumb” “It’s all about oil,” “The U.S. created Osama,” etc.Given that background, and the “U.S. sucks” mindset extends to those actually running the company, the mere idea of Captian America as created is offensive to them. So to even get near the character, they have to either kill him off of change him into something more to their ideological liking (and in case you forgot, the same people were behind outing Marvel’s Rawhide Kid as gay a couple of months ago, so we’re dealing with a company that defintely has a liberal point of view politically and is not afraid to put in front of their readers, no matter what age their target audience might be).

#29 Doss  4/16/2003 07:11PM PST
This is just so sad, I mean, do even the comics now have to be a re-education project. I guess they ought to have Wile E. catch the Road Runner now lest he feel like a failure and suffer a case of low self-esteem.

#30 Peter S  4/16/2003 07:31PM PST
I caught this a couple of months ago in a copy of the Avengers. The Avengers, by the way (this is how sick it has become at Marvel), are now their own UN entity, and actively oppose the Us department of Defense and State Department.No, I am not kidding.This is an insult to the memory of Captain America’s original creator- Jack Kirby – real name Jack Kurtzberg- a Jewish WW2 veteran.

#31 Peter  4/16/2003 08:00PM PST
ON THE PLUS SIDE–>(Sorry, I am a huge comics geek) On the plus side- these recent Marvel comics have zero appeal with young kids or even adolescent kids as far as I can tell. The storylines are too confusing, and moral ambiguity might be “interesting” to college students- but the same type of people who might finds this interesting, doesn’t particularly like superheroes, usually. To put it flatly- the new Marvel superhero lineup plain sucks. Marvel has actually put out a call for new writers recently too.
( I also sampled a recent Hulk wihich sucked too, prompting me to give up on Marvel for a while).There once was a day when Peter David would sneak references to Sabra, the Israeli superheroine in Hulk, though. And Jack Kirby worked the Golem into a major storyline in the Invaders. DC made the Golem a character in several series (I think the last one was Primal Force or that Monster-Squad-ish comic they did a while back. and then Ragman. Disney has really picked up where Marvel has fallen to crap.Anyhow, I highly recommend Justice League and most of the DC lineup if you read superhero comics at all. They aren’t political, but it’s not like theyre avoiding anything. And for younger kids, the ‘animated series’ comics like Justice Legaue Adventures, Batman Beyond and Bathman Adventures all have great stories that wrap up in a single issue. My 4 year old loves them.And my final plug for a comic– Image’s Masters of the Universe. Yes, He-Man. Don’t laugh! This comic has some of the best art I have ever seen in a comic, the best colors I have ever seen anywhere, slick paper, and actually pretty good stories that recall the greatness of the Silver Age.

#32 Ranbutan  4/16/2003 08:24PM PST
Complain to Marvel execs. The head cheeses are billionaire owner Isaac Perlmutter, CEO Alan Lipson, Chairman of the Board Morton Handel, and deputy CEO Avi Arad..(the exec tasked with “creativity control”), an Israeli. Joe Quesada is just a cheese covered taco acting as editor flunky. To see who is really calling the shots, look at the 10Q statement to the SEC and envestor newsletters…whatever happened with Captain America…it had to pass through Avi Arad.Marvel’s foreign and domestic mavens are just following the same cultural war against American values as Hollywood execs. #7 is correct. The war to destroy American values is underway by the owners & controllers of the mass media. Anything to turn a buck. In 2002, original owner and creator Stan Lee sued the new lawyer sharks and entertainment execs for 10’s of millions….charging they were methodically ripping him off from royalties and destroying the intristic value of certain characters he created by changing their basic “comic persona & nature” at Avi Avad’s urging.Why should any of this be a surprise given the same basic cultural attitudes of the people calling the shots in other entertainment venues.Stan Lee was a red-blooded American who had the patriotic Fantastic 4, Nick Fury & the Howling Commandos, the Silver Surfer as well as Captain America. And, his anti-heroes to distinguish himself from DC Comics. To him the Soviets were bad, America was good. The current execs seem to think America is a racist Nazi State.Link to the Marvel execs and the owners:Marvel Entertainment Investor Website

#33 Glen Wishard  4/16/2003 09:22PM PST

Stan Lee was a red-blooded American who had the patriotic Fantastic 4, Nick Fury & the Howling Commandos, the Silver Surfer as well as Captain America.

I have some fond memories of Nick Fury and the Howling Commandos, the greatest bunch of multi-ethnic reactionaries in comic book history.

And the wise-guy Brooklynese argot was pure poetry:

SGT. FURY: Awright, Izzy, you got five minutes to steal us a Kraut staff car.

IZZY COHEN: Cripes, Sarge, as long as you’re giving me so much time, is there any p’ticular color you’d like?

SGT. FURY: SHADDUP! Yer down to four minutes now!

#34 Jewels  4/16/2003 09:32PM PST
*sigh*Tell me about it. The whole X-men saga has turned from a vague reference to the 1960’s civil rights movement to a rather nasty allusion to 1930’s German (pogroms and all) in the series. And while I can appreciate the message that racism is bad, the whole thing has distorted America into something rather unrecognizable but reminds me of Nazi Germany.I attribute this to rather unimaginative writers who need to create synthetic angst for the readers, and since Nazis are such great villains, how can they miss.What I would find interesting, instead of the standard rubbish of things just continually getting worse, that some people in that world see whats coming, and petition thier government to stop. The Government Controlled by Evil ForcesTM, of course, refuses. Then a civil conflict results because of the American peoples lack of stomach for genocide (modern left wing fruitbat’s claims to the contrary) and the scum are eventually defeated, adn the people realize jsut how close they came to becoming just what the Left has been accusing America of being.

#35 mommydoc  4/16/2003 09:49PM PST
Malory (#16) That was quite an interesting little piece. What a twit that woman is. First of all, who the hell takes on a role as an embed and thenlets them know that she’s morally opposed to being up close and personal with the war? It’s not much different than that moron who tried to get out of the Marines because he supposedly didn’t understand that he might have to go to war. Shades of Private Benjamin!And don’t you love how it’s all about her: the hard-working Marines also had to be her freakin’ nanny, and put themselves in danger to do so. What a spoiled brat!The whole tone of wide-eyed wonder– wow, Marines are real people, not just bloodthirsty animals!–just makes me want to slap her. And I also found it interesting that she repeatedly brought up the parallels between the Marines’ caring and generous behavior and the supposed similar behavior of the Iraqis, but never gave any evidence of the latter.What a twittering little bird.

#36 Glen Wishard  4/16/2003 09:55PM PST
I should point out: The first anti-American comic book hero (circa 1940) was Prince Namor the Submariner, who makes this Black Muslim Captain America look like Gary Coleman.The Submariner vowed to wipe out the United States. He trashed New York City, even ripping the top off the Empire State building (“So they’re proud of this, are they?”) and throwing it into a street full of people.A little creepy to read today.

#37 Mike  4/16/2003 09:56PM PST
I’ve said it in other places, and I’ll repeat it here: Medved’s a suck-ass neo-conservative that can’t wrap his mind around anything that challenges his pedantic view of what morality should be. His views are created through the prism of Christian fundamentalism, and should be discounted unless you believe the same ignorant tripe.These stories aren’t even finished – the series has two more issues to go until it’s finished. Medved is making presumptive judgments with incomplete information – much like most of his other criticisms. He’s the proverbial eunuch at the orgy – incapable of understanding what’s going on and participating fully, he criticizes that which he fails to understand.Do yourselves a favor and either read the stories he wrongly criticizes or stick to commenting on things you do have knowledge of. At least that way you’ll have more basis for your opinion than this pinhead.

#38 datarat  4/16/2003 09:58PM PST
There is SO much wrong with this book.Steve Rogers was a fluke. The Super Soldier formula never worked on anyone else.The object seems to be that it doesn’t matter who won WWII, because we’re all just as bad as the other guys. While I’m more than willing to admit that bad things were done (and are done) in this country, this is so far over the line it’s beyond fantasy.It’s self-hate and self-loathing. And what makes it worse is the fact that it never happenned, so the writer had to invent an evil, instead of dealing with the evils that already existed.I’m ill.

#39 Robert Brandtjen  4/16/2003 10:05PM PST

This is really sad and stupid. And disturbing, because this stuff greatly influences young boys—and what they’re learning from this new Captain UnAmerican is to distrust and hate their own country.

The answer is, as always, in front of your face. Joe Quesada obviously hates “white ” america, which has been for a long time, the past time of the left in this country.

Your kidding yourselves, those of you who are Jewish, to think you are not included in this- you are, your viewed as being “white’ and, more importantly, “Western”. AS long as you allow them to say these things (and I know, this blog is all about fisking the left) then you quietly give your consent to it. You must learn not to be afraid to defend yourselves and your heritage in public. When you see or hear someone speak in such a manner, do not let it pass. If it’s a teacher, demand they prove the allegations, if your a parent, remove the child from the school.

Everytime some slimy ass bigot from the left makes a false allegation and gets away with it, it is one more nail in our coffin. WHat do you think is going to happen when we become the minority in this country? do you really think they won’t simply take our property from us in the guise of ‘reperations”? do you think they simply will smile after all these years of being told how whites and jews enslaved them, stole from them, persecuted and abused them? why in the hell do you think they’re doing it? They’re doing it to tear down Western culture and those who represent it.

Dear G-d, can’t you see the similarities between this type of shit and goebbel’s anti-jew propaganda of the 3rd reich? Now, flash foward to the filth that spews out of the middle east. The writing is on the wall, only the blind cannot read it.

3 weeks ago a 15 year old white kid with asthma was run down by 3 black 20 year olds and kicked to death in St.Paul. It was not declared a “hate crime” it was called a “mistaken identity”. this goes on all the time in this country, check the Dept. of Justice website- 95% of all so called “hate crimes” are perpetrated by “minorities” against whites- and yet they go largely unreported. 2 years ago, a 12 year old jewish kid was raped analy by 3 black teenages while he waited for a bus- no hate crime their either.

Every time an asshole like Joe Quesada gets to get away with this shit, he raises the bar on the violence. The Justice system in this country already has a two tier system, only whites can commit hate crimes, minorities are simply responding to our racism.

#40 Robert Brandtjen  4/16/2003 10:09PM PST
#12- well said

#41 datarat  4/16/2003 10:28PM PST
I can’t let this go. I’ve actually come back to post more.Stan Lee taught me one of the most lessons of my life, something that all of America would do well to remember in these opening years of the 21st century.

With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility

There are different kinds of Power, and our military and economic power lay upon us a responsibility never known before.

By the same token the media, Movies, Television, and Comic Books have a responsibility to teach what’s right, what’s good, and not to try to lay a load of guilt on children who have no business bearing it.

Our Children will bear the weight of the world, why should they bear guilt for actions they never took?

How will our children know right from wrong, good from evil, loyalty from treachery if we continuously tell them that we’re just as bad as the evil we fight?

Ok, I’m going to go get a drink. I’m still so angry I’m shaking.

#42 stevo  4/16/2003 10:29PM PST
It doesn’t really matter what the writers do, because American children aren’t reading American comic books anymore. They all read Shonen Jump now.

#43 piglet  4/16/2003 10:31PM PST
Somewhere in my collection of comics, I have a copy of What if … ( I forget the rest of the title, but it is where instead of dropping an atomic bomb on Japan, Dr. Bruce Banner’s Gamma Bomb is dropped on Japan.)In our “reality” this is the bomb that turned bruce banner into the Hulk. In this comic, Japan surrenders, but then the radiation from the bomb turns its survivors into huge green superpowerful Imperial Japanese Hulks, and they kick Americas ass.A comic in somewhat bad taste nes pa?

#44 Canadian Pork  4/16/2003 10:36PM PST
Come to think of it, if a 10 year old kid picks up one of those comics….hes really not going to pick up on the underlying message. Hes just interested in the damn comic, chocolate bars…let kids be kids man.When i read the dull Archie and Jughead books I loved them. Now that im an adult, I find faults in the wife-beating treatment Moose gave Midge, the playa that Archie was (he was screwin both Veronica and Betty!) and Jugheads obvious munchies MUST have been caused by extreme marijuana use.BUT DID I KNOW THAT AS A KID? No, cause I was a kid. And it was a comic book. AND…I stopped reading them after I grew up.

#45 someone  4/16/2003 11:07PM PST
Perhaps we should boycott X-Men 2. The trailers showed more USA-as-Nazi-Germany nonsense than I may be able to stomach in these times.

#46 Tom  4/16/2003 11:38PM PST

I’ve said it in other places, and I’ll repeat it here: Medved’s a suck-ass neo-conservative that can’t wrap his mind around anything that challenges his pedantic view of what morality should be. His views are created through the prism of Christian fundamentalism, and should be discounted unless you believe the same ignorant tripe.

Mike, #37:

Actually, I think Michael Medved is Jewish. I could be wrong, but his website calls him “a nice Jewish boy”:

Michael’s controversial lectures at Hillsdale College in Michigan on the damaging impact of popular culture led to a contract to write “Hollywood Vs. America.” After its publication in 1992, members of the entertainment establishment denounced Medved as “stupid,” “a Nazi,:” or “a fundamentalist Christian fanatic” (no way to talk about a nice Jewish boy!).

But then, I think he’s a great American.

#47 tmid  4/17/2003 12:50AM PST
I remember my reaction to the Previews solicitation was along the lines of “@#@! They HAVE to make everything murky, PC, and morally questionable, don’t they?” Just for the record, Steve Rogers, the Captain America in the comics, is the same heroic, idealistic hero who joined the super-soldier program to fight the Nazis in the original comic, even in this mini-series.Marvel is not deconstructing his character, but rather the world and situations that led to his creation. Given the experiments in Tuskegee and the lack of respect for black soldiers in the war, it’s understandable that someone would consider this treatment of the backstory within reason. Distasteful, overwrought, and hamfisted, but within reason given the time we are looking back upon.Considering the inability of the major comics companies to tell innovative or coherent stories with mainstay characters like Captain America, this is not surprising. Again, they have not changed the character -the persona- of Steve Rogers, but they have diminished the legacy by their attempts to “update” his history. And he isn’t the only character victimized this way.DC ruined the character of Hal Jordan, the Silver Age Green Lantern, by making him a villain. Not just a villain, but the most prolific mass murderer in their comic universe. Why? Well, simply, they couldn’t come up with any other ideas. To boost sales with multi-component comics crossovers and inject fresh blood by creating a new character with the same name and powers, DC destroyed Green Lantern by betraying his “character” (and years of readers).Part of it was undoubtedly ego. They wanted an affect on one of the “big guns” of the DC universe. Making the third-tier hero Hawk into a villain in a previous “maxi-series” had been poorly received. It wasn’t hard to figure out who the “secret traitor” was from the first promotional release, and just made a third-rate hero into a two-bit villain. But I think the biggest reasons for this treatment of a superhero are lack of creativity, disinterest in the character and lack of respect for his history. Deconstruction is less about vision or “reimagining” and more about marketing and easy outs for complacent writers.Not all attempts at adding depth or dimension are ill conceived or poorly executed. Some are exceptionally well done, and thoroughly involving, but they usually proceed from a genuine enthusiasm for the character’s “character”, and a desire to add depth and perspective, not just twist for twisting’s sake.

Captain America and Superman are both the “super patriots” of their respective comic universes. In so much as they really do represent an ideal of American values, the archetype of the paragon of justice, they have maintained a level of immunity to pathos and decline that have afflicted so many other classic heroes. Lousy stories, but uncorrupted characters. They are even more untouchable than Batman or Spiderman, and vastly moreso than the other superheroes who came after them. Partly for merchandising due to their rich histories and immediate recognition, but also, I think, attributable to what they each represent: the very real ideal of the perfect American.

So, no Captain America in the comics, his own and the “Truth” mini-series, is not a traitor. He is not diminished in valor or principle. He remains true to the best ideals and convictions which he was created to represent. The same is not necessarily true of the authors or companies publishing comics.

Sorry for the long post. I don’t post often, so I guess it evens out.

#48 Paul S.  4/17/2003 01:29AM PST
Everything changes. What I thought was pure and noble as a kid, now often looks tarnished. It is the loss of innocence (and screwing around with Capt. America messes with a lot of peoples youthful memories).Maybe not everything changes. Two things in the world remain pure. The movie The Sound of Music, and the TV show The Brady Bunch. I refused to see any of the BB movies because I was concerned they would try and “improve” it. How could you ever improve the Brady Bunch?

#49 leo  4/17/2003 02:15AM PST

“The beauty of America is that we can tell these stories and learn from our mistakes and move on.”

#24: It may be a bit of an oversimplification, but that’s exactly the argument which consummately works to shut up any Euros debating about who armed Saddam.

#50 Andjam  4/17/2003 02:19AM PST
When I read the first part of the entry, the word “Tuskegee” came to mind.Criticising your own country in the hope of making it a better country is not bad or unAmerican. But doing it to instill a sense of moral equivalency and hatred for your own country so that America never does anything useful is bad. A distinction between the two should be remembered.At least the movie Spiderman has some moral clarity. The murder of Peter’s uncle by a thief Peter ignored showed that you can’t just ignore problems because they don’t (immediately) affect you. The bit about the people you are trying to help will suspect you as just being as bad as the villians reminded me of the perception of America.

#51 giovanni  4/17/2003 04:13AM PST
This is a true Captain American, speaking the truth to unjust power and policy that represent a consistent pattern in this country. Its time for the people to wake up, rise up, and enact regime change here! Go, go, Captain America! Put the Bushite criminals in Jail for this illegal war and their crimes against the people of the world.Not only that, its necessary to look back and see how the illegal and morally reprensible actions of the past fit in with today. For instance, check out this story:
Amazing story about some members of the DOD and military planning covert attacks against US civilians (and blaiming these attacks on Castro..) as an excuse to invade Cuba. Luckily Kennedy nixed the project.

#52 Timothy Burton Eldred  4/17/2003 05:55AM PST
You say at the end “mistrust
their country.” It took me a
long while to realize what
an enormous revelation it is
when McNamara said he KNEW
Vietnam was “not winnable.”
Most of us, very definitely
including me, could have and
would have done something
about that. He did not.

#53 Mike  4/17/2003 06:06AM PST
#46 – oops. Ya got me. My bad.I made the same mistake I accuse others of (assumption without basis). My apologies.

#54 Andjam  4/17/2003 06:15AM PST
#51’s claims reminds me of claims that Australia let a refugee boat (called SIEV-X) sink in 2001 because our “racist” nation hates refugees and Muslims.

#55 KenAmmo  4/17/2003 06:19AM PST
I always preferred Captain Klutzof Mad Magazine fame…IYAAYAS

#56 Gary O’Brien  4/17/2003 06:46AM PST
Time was every villian in the Marvel Universe was a Communist. Nowadfays every villian in the Marvel Universe seems to be an Industialist.OT inre: Hal Jordan:Get a life. Test Pilot,Insurance adjuster,toy salesman,trucker,pilot;Jordan had his run.
How many times must a man face his own evil?

#57 Crusade Now  4/17/2003 07:04AM PST
~51 The unjust and criminal muslims are occupying my land. Denying me thorough devious machinations the right of return. They control the home office and forcing me to pay extra taxes to support their benifts. This is the oppression I live under in the UK. All around the world the muslims are sucking the life blood out of modern nations. They illegally enter and stay forcing their way of life upon the indigenous. They are plotting an planning posion attacks on mass transport systems. These vile snakes need to be chopped.

#58 Inspector Callahan  4/17/2003 07:17AM PST
Why is it that creative types cannot think logically? There are exceptions, but the vast majority of creative types (artists, actors, entertainers) are idiots.Maybe it has to do with one side of the brain having control of another. Any shrinks out there who can validate this?TV

#59 Deacon Frost  4/17/2003 07:18AM PST
1. Tuskegee did happen.
2. Y’all better not go see the Hulk this summer if this offends you. Distrust of the government is a common theme in popular entertainment. I suppose that Scully and Mulder are now anti-American icons too now.
3. Medved is a mouth-breathing idiot with horrible taste in entertainment and will bash a movie just because it is too “gay friendly.” I’ll see a movie or read a book just because he bashed it.

#60 milkandcookies  4/17/2003 07:26AM PST
#37 Mike
Medved is, in fact, Jewish.Can you, or anyone else, please define “fundamentalist Christian” for me, as used here? I know what the exact definition is: a Christian who adheres to the “Fundamentals” set out in the early 20th century. But the term seems to have a broader meaning today and to be more of a catch-all expression. Many thanks!

#61 nextcube  4/17/2003 08:34AM PST
#59 (Deacon Frost)I used to be a big X-Files fan; liked the characters of Mulder, Scully and Skinner, and really enjoyed the show. I thought the “government conspiracy” stuff was a little overdone (let’s face it – the government couldn’t keep the “stealth fighter” secret; how are they gonna cover up an alien invasion?) but many of the non-conspiracy episodes really were entertaining sci-fi/horror/mystery stories. Interestingly, as the focus on the “conspiracy” went up, the show’s popularity went down (of course, once Duchovny left, it was all over anyway). (And it was entertaining to think that C.G.B. Spender was behind it all… 🙂 )I dunno, maybe my BS detector is well-calibrated, and when I watch a film where there’s some evil, awful government plot, the detector tells me to laugh it off. Let’s face it – few of us around here take the people making these movies or comics seriously, why should we take their work seriously?

#62 Paladin  4/17/2003 08:52AM PST
Just another example–in a different form–of the left rewriting history to suit their own prejudice and to make America look bad.

#63 Harry  4/17/2003 09:12AM PST
Unlike Marvel’s golden age during the 1960s, few 10-year olds read comics anymore—-their audience is heavily skewed toward older teens and young adults, and in that age range alienation from everything is considered a sign of a great intellect in action.Sadly, this development is a natural outgrowth of the stuff Marvel pioneered in the 1960s. It was initially refreshing to see characters like Spiderman, Daredevil, the Fantastic Four, etc., that had human qualities and shortcomings, but now everything is focused on their angst, pain, and uncertainty—the heroic elements that are an essential of all mythic fantasies (which superhero comics are) have now been lost in a sea of self-loathing and moral confusion.At this rate we’ll soon have superhero comics like “The Human Mope” and “Mediator Man.”

#64 Curmudgeon  4/17/2003 09:23AM PST
“The beauty of America is that we can tell these stories and learn from our mistakes”You gotta be shitting me! Learn mistakes from fiction?You learn from real life!The bozos writing comic books are living in their own comic book world!

#65 Bill  4/17/2003 09:31AM PST
Crikey… if you folks don’t like the retcon of Captain America after not having read it, then be sure to not read but criticize the upcoming Superman mini, “Red Son” which features Superman as a Russian Red Communist.By the way… kids really don’t read “superhero” comics these days… it’s all guys in their 20s and 30s. Cartoons and video games have supplanted serial pamphlets in the entertainment minds of the youth…

#66 Grognard  4/17/2003 09:44AM PST
re: 59 Deacon Frost
1. Yes, two things happened at Tuskegee. One reprehensible and one glorious. It’s interesting to see how many people will choose to focus upon one or the other instead of considering both.
2. Some of those anti-Government movies are funny: Enemy of the State was hysterical.
3. Agree. Medved couldn’t identify entertainment if it were making him laugh, cry, and cheer all at the same time – he’d blame it on the Red Hots or something.

#67 Mike  4/17/2003 09:56AM PST
#60 – see my follow-up post to (half-) answer your question.

#68 Mike  4/17/2003 09:57AM PST
fyi, that would be post #53.

#69 Mike  4/17/2003 10:00AM PST
#60. as to the rest of your question, try this. Personally, I use the term in the more colloquial, slanderous fashion.Hey, at least I’ll admit it…

#70 rurpecht  4/17/2003 10:28AM PST
If memory serves in DARK KNIGHT RETURNS the Green Arrow had become a communist. Don’t know much about Green Arrow but I doubt he was a communist in his own stories. Didn’t hear a peep from any comic book fans at the time and the US was still in the cold war then.

#71 nik  4/17/2003 11:33AM PST
#31 DAMN She’s hot!

“I had read all the intelligence reports concerning these synthetic mutant hunting atrocities…But I never dreamed I’d encounter one. Especially not in a country many of us see as a haven against intolerance” (*insert insane and uncontrollable laughter here*)
Sabra: “…and that I have been trained by the Mossad.”
Iceman: “mos–?! Great. The world’s deadliest intelligence agency. Does this mean you have to kill us now that you’ve said that?” (*insert insane and uncontrollable laughter here*)


#72 Comic Guy  4/17/2003 12:07PM PST
I work in the comic industry, and have been trying to warn people about this. Marvel is currently publishing a miniseries called “411” which features various stories about choosing peace above war. They equate Israelis and Palestinians in one such story. It’s a liberal fantasyfest, and sold under the guide of celebrating “peacemakers.”If that’s not enough, one of Marvel’s biggest writers (he writes Ultimate X-Men and is the main force behind 411) is Mark Millar, who recently stated in an interview that “there are only three people who don’t want peace: Osama bin Laden, Doctor Doom, and George W Bush.” His idiotic sentiment is shared throughout comics to an extent that would shock people. It’s a liberal field, fill of radicals who put their own politics into their books.

#73 Lester  4/17/2003 12:24PM PST
Well, I suppose it’s no surprise that there’s 70+ posts of criticism here of a book that apparently no one has bothered to read.I have. I think it’s got flaws (this is Morales’ first long-form writing gig, and he doesn’t have a sure handle on pacing yet), but it has great art by the always-brilliant Kyle Baker, and the story is not even close to the one-sided hate-America drivel you’ve portrayed it as without even picking up a copy.It does have a lot of Americans drawn in a sinister light; I’m sorry if it’s dismaying to you to have Captain America’s image associated with such things, but plenty of CA storylines have questioned his role as a symbol of the nation when that requires him to do terrible things. Furthermore, the allegations of anti-Semitism are baseless, as in the latest issue, the black hero deliberately disobeys orders in order to try and save prisoners in an extermination camp; and Reinstein is never identified as being Jewish, only German.The black characters are hardly saints, either; none of them are Muslims (although one becomes a Muslim later in life, apparently) when the story begins, and as many of them are portrayed as criminal, psychotic or just stupid as are portrayed as kind, upstanding and pure. You know, like in life. Both the white Americans and the white Germans are portrayed mostly negatively, but others are shown as upstanding or as innocent victims of circumstance. Its tone is morally ambigous and dark, but not outright condemnatory any more than it is morally neutral. It simply shows that a hell of a lot of bad things were done in the war, on both sides, in aid of their respective struggles.If you want to hate it, hate it — though I think there’s a lot to like. But for goodness’ sake, at least READ it so you don’t sound like a fool.

#74 B.J.  4/17/2003 01:07PM PST
Quesada tried the ass-kicking terrorist-bashing Cap for a small time, wouldn’t go all the way with it, and couldn’t make money so he’s going for the “shock and awe” flamming libby crowd. The problem is, they have all these artsy-fartsy losers on their writing staff who are pretending they are putting out Shakespeare.They need to lighten up and get back to their routes. Claremont’s X-Men was the start of all this crap and its infected every single comment. Characters dying every month, unresolved storyline plots, re-starts, you name it.One other thing, Captain America was supposed to symbolize the “American Ideal/Dream” and until they get back to those roots, they might as well just leave the series on the side.

#75 PIGLET  4/17/2003 04:46PM PST

Don’t know much about Green Arrow but I doubt he was a

Goatee beard, wore tights,
( did he live in “the village”) certainly meant to be a “beatnick.” Got to read between the lines, man.

#76 The Unkillable Grimace  4/17/2003 06:33PM PST
It’s true. For the most part, kids don’t read comics any more, and comics really don’t even try to market to kids that much (DC’s various tie ins to their animated series and Marvel’s Ultimate Spider-Man series seem to be the more noticeable exceptions).And yes, it’s true that a number of comic writers fall into the current “we hate America (or Bush or whatever)” crowd. Back in the 70s, when comics first started appealing to older people, they did it by aiming for the late teens and 20-somethings. The naively cynical college kids, more or less. And this trend has continued to some degree or another up until today. In fact, Marvel’s primary target audience these days are the college kids and trendy counterculture 20-somethings (much of Marvel’s ideas these days are largely geared toward doing what DC’s Vertigo line was doing 10 years ago, and what Image comics has been doing for the past five years or so). So today, we’ve got several hip and trendy writers who just don’t get the whole idea behind superheroes. The idea of “I’ve got these abilities so maybe I should put them to use actually helping people” just doesn’t compute, it seems. (Mark Millar is probably one of the worst here, as his characters become walking poster children for the concept of Fantasy Ideology – where looking and feeling righteous is more important than actually helping people; The character of Thor in Marvel’s Ultimates series is a good example, as he’s a voice for Millar’s own views, with the result that no one challenges Thor’s actions or beliefs, letting them be presented as gospel.)However, there are comics out there that either do get the idea of superheroes or aren’t thinly disguised leftist diatribes. A few are actually even suitable for kids. Marvel has been reprinting the 80s version of GIJoe in trade paperbacks. Astro City does Silver Age style superheroes as real people, and probably does it better than anyone else (unsurprisingly, Kurt Busiek’s run on The Avengers a few years ago had one of the best versions of Captain America I can remember). Fables and Hellboy aren’t for kids, but are largely apolitical urban fantasy and pulp action/horror, respectively. Preacher isn’t for kids either, and though some may object to it’s take on religion, it’s one of the most staunchly pro-American books I can think of (and it’s ironic that it’s written by a guy from Northern Ireland, and the same guy who actually gets the fact that Superman is an American icon because he’s the ultimate immigrant).As for Captain America, it’s best just to ignore it. Almost every comic character has some sort of unpleasent baggage in his back issues. Eventually, another writer comes along and revitalizes the character, either ignoring the old crap or explaining it away. Several years ago, Marvel tried to say that the Spider-Man we’d known all these years was a clone, and replaced him with the “real” Spider-Man. That didn’t last. Eventually, this to shall pass.(And yeah, Green Arrow’s been a radical left-wing crank since the 70s. His long running arguments with the right-wing Hawkman have become a subject of parody at this point. I also have the What If issue with the army of Japanese Hulks – or Oni as they were called – and it was told from the point of view of Bruce Banner as one of the 1960s Marvel heroes who’d become the vanguard of a second American Revolution against the Japanese empire. As for the X-Men, if Marvel was really eager to get kids to read comics again, they’d overhaul the whole thing into a Harry Potter style kids-with-powers-at-boarding-school thing instead of an outdated and ham handed metaphor for racism.)

#77 RHJunior  4/18/2003 02:50AM PST
This is not surprising in the least.Liberals HATE the very concept of heroes; they do everything in their power to tear them down, belittle them, equate them with the wicked….For a liberal, the ‘deconstruction’ of the concept of the hero or the superhero is a holy cause.Why?Because even as fictional characters heroes and superheros represent an archetype that is anathema to the collectivist vision: the individual, the iconoclast, the lone man set apart who does what he does because he can, because it’s right— no matter how many powerful people oppose him, no matter how much it will personally cost him. They embody the concept of individual power, and individual responsibility.
What’s more, they generally do so by abiding by a higher moral code, one that doesn’t change to suit the situation or the hero’s momentary desires. Believing in absolute right and wrong is an obscenity to a leftist…The left mocks, parodies and belittles fictional characters like Superman and Captain America for just that reason. Or failing that, they try to twist and corrupt them into an obscene inversion of themselves.

#78 Grognard  4/18/2003 07:13AM PST
re: 77 RHJunior
Wow. Very eloquent, yet succinct. Damned good job, sir.

#79 piglet  4/21/2003 01:25PM PST
I just remembered that at one time Captain America had teenagers giving him tips on crime over e-mail,
they may have been The Sentinials of Liberty.
Now we have bloggers!When Captain AMerica throws his mighty shield…

131 Comments on “Rescued from Memory Hole: “Captain America, Traitor?” – The Complete Thread”

  1. I don’t know if there’s anything particularly interesting in there; we post this stuff because we can. Plus, I’m sure the registered loozards will appreciate knowing that this thread was there.

  2. John Difool says:

    Ironically, Chunk describing what Captain America transformed into circa 2003 sounds exactly what he himself has transformed into presently.

    Perhaps this was a premonition or an epiphany.

  3. Claytonia Sibirica says:

    I had hoped this was gonna be about “Civil War”, that’s a storyline I’d never even heard of.

    Gritty reboots are always bad. ALWAYS!

  4. ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

    Giving the fans what they want since 9/11.

    No principles. No scruples.

    • Claytonia Sibirica says:

      flog the horse, his opinions have actually changed on this most likely.

      He still should man up though

      • ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

        “most likely”

        Based on what evidence?

        For just about every opinion he has expressed there exists a record of him having a contrary opinion or demonstrating contrary behavior. The distance between such events is sometimes years but can be days as well.

      • ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

        Claytonia –

        Read this screen cap.

        Has all of the elements of exclusion, bigotry, hate mongering, collective de-humanization and tribalism of anything posted on any hate site.

        Chuck has changed his ways? His mind?

      • Claytonia Sibirica says:

        the question is ‘pandering’ or ‘has a different opinion on comics critical of the US than he used to’.

        you don’t have to like his new opinions you know? But its more likely that they’ve changed than that he’s just pandering.

        Not like that makes it ‘not lame’

      • Abu Bin Squid says:

        piss off

      • ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

        OK – how would one differentiate one who panders to a new crowd from one who has simply changed his mind?

        As for agreeing with him, I didn’t always agree with him. I agreed with him most when I thought he was tempering his views.

      • Claytonia Sibirica says:

        Arguably gut feeling.

        It fits the pattern better too, the criticism is much better and more telling if you keep it realistic too, instead of trying to oversell.

  5. Claytonia Sibirica says:

    on the tech side, the ‘memory hole’ is made up of posts and threads that he’s tried to destroy or hide, right?

  6. ISTE says:

    245 The Hoopster
    Mon, Feb 13, 2012 5:47:54pm

    re: #217 Charles Johnson

    An interesting Twitter search:


    Charles..I am deeply disappointed.. I don’t even know how to address this.
    I have been accused multiple times of going to RW web sites and dumping racist comments by the stalkers. I have never nor would ever engage in anything so despicable.. Of course they have no proof and none exists in this Universe.. Yet they smear me to perhaps get to you? I dunno..It hurts me deeply..So I need to stop looking over there for my amusement, It stopped being funny any more…
    I’d like to ask you a few questions Charles.. Did I not send you a documentation of me being the Republican of the year years ago? Did I not get invited to the Bush White House? Wasn’t I a good GOP guy years ago?
    Have I ever not been honest about my politics and how I have changed my views (esp. Cause of my dad).
    I now know you feel about being smeared and lied about…
    I guess they thought if they floated enough Lies about me I’d stop blogging..Nope…not going to happen..I have nothing more to say about that lying trash..


    Please hug me and love me Charles. I have always been a good boy. I never meant to hurt you by going over to Ace of Spades and dumping racist comments.

    Please forgive me Charles, I just want you to love me again….
    *sound of an ass being passionately kissed…*

  7. Kos Laughs At Chuckles says:

    and watching a grown man like Hoopsie beg acceptance to a sociopath like fatso is pathetic. Ask Sharmuta, Irish Rose, Yooper, and the others who founded Defenseman what it feels like to be used & abandoned by the ponytail. It’ll happen to you as well, Bill.

    • Bunk X says:

      The Defenseman saga was epic, especially when they started throwing acid at each other and the whole place melted.

  8. Voltaires Crack says:

    ZappaWouldBeVomiting :
    Claytonia –
    Read this screen cap.
    Has all of the elements of exclusion, bigotry, hate mongering, collective de-humanization and tribalism of anything posted on any hate site.
    Chuck has changed his ways? His mind?

    Is Jazzy’s reference to ‘nutpicking’ in this comment intentional? I’m missing the nuance if so.

  9. garycooper says:

    Very embarrassing, Hoops. Of course, you’ve been here before. They say you can get used to anything, so getting used to being the laughingstock of the blogoverse is probably pretty easy. I mean, look at your master, Chunky. He makes it look near-effortless.

  10. livefreeor die says:

    Put down the beer already.
    I think you’ve have enough for tonight.

  11. Kos Laughs At Chuckles says:

    I just posted it, but here is the closest I can come with only 5 seconds of research regarding Hoops & his fake racist comments

    • Voltaires Crack says:

      Right around the same time that Afrocity was banned for posting at …er… Ace of Spades, right?

      • Kos Laughs At Chuckles says:

        naw. I think she hung around a few more months at LGF , but she didn’t make it to 2010 over there

  12. Voltaires Crack says:

    Jazzy Ponytail’s life is a moderately good play with a badly written third act.

  13. ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

    This is Why We Fight. This is the nature of the opposition. I live amongst these people here in what they proudly refer to as “the buckle of the Koran belt” and I’m here to tell you that John’s post of last week was right on the money. You need to read their sites— Al Jazeera, Democratic Underground,, Juan Cole’s site, and others. See what they say to each other when they think they aren’t being watched. The palpable hatred and violent fantasies will make you sick, but you need to know what they want, and you need to keep seeing it in their own words. It’s one thing to say “we read them so you don’t have to” but it’s entirely another to make you all see that you do, in fact, need to. In a few days after this thread is dead, some conservatives will post here claiming that it’s all projection and fantasy, just like they did with John’s post last week. None of that will change a thing. If you’ve ever wondered why I dump shit all over the sorry-assed islamotrolls we have here, it’s because there is no fundamental difference between them and the people quoted above. Their world is the world that our little trolls would make, and people such as they deserve only contempt.
    Lest you or anyone accuse me of nutpicking, I am specifically calling out the commenters on those sites. But I’ll note that there’s a reason that racists and bigots frequent sites like Juan Cole’s site (which is actually pretty ironic) and DU and
    If you love this country, you need to know and you need to fight for it. If you want a better future for your children, you need to know and you need to fight for it.

    • Voltaires Crack says:

      ZappaWouldBeVomiting :
      This is Why We Fight. This is the nature of the opposition. I live amongst these people here in what they proudly refer to as “the buckle of the Koran belt” and I’m here to tell you that John’s post of last week was right on the money. You need to read their sites— Al Jazeera, Democratic Underground,, Juan Cole’s site, and others. See what they say to each other when they think they aren’t being watched. The palpable hatred and violent fantasies will make you sick, but you need to know what they want, and you need to keep seeing it in their own words. It’s one thing to say “we read them so you don’t have to” but it’s entirely another to make you all see that you do, in fact, need to. In a few days after this thread is dead, some conservatives will post here claiming that it’s all projection and fantasy, just like they did with John’s post last week. None of that will change a thing. If you’ve ever wondered why I dump shit all over the sorry-assed islamotrolls we have here, it’s because there is no fundamental difference between them and the people quoted above. Their world is the world that our little trolls would make, and people such as they deserve only contempt.
      Lest you or anyone accuse me of nutpicking, I am specifically calling out the commenters on those sites. But I’ll note that there’s a reason that racists and bigots frequent sites like Juan Cole’s site (which is actually pretty ironic) and DU and
      If you love this country, you need to know and you need to fight for it. If you want a better future for your children, you need to know and you need to fight for it.

      Again with the nutpicking.

    • ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:


      If you replace that one “conservatives” above with “Islamists” (as I intended) it reads just like what would have shown up at Chuckies blog 6 years ago.

      Which underscores the point – changing one’s mind often leads to seeking new methods.

      This is the same stuff as before, just pitched to a new audience.

      • Claytonia Sibirica says:

        excepting he would have been substantially more successful as a blogger if he’d stayed with the same old shit.

        You don’t pander to your audience by going out of your way to offend them.

      • ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

        We are agreed there.

        But his numbers were tanking for a full 18 months prior to his “sudden conversion” as the BRC engineers have fully documented.

        So the implied lack of motivation doesn’t really work here – he saw bad numbers, saw his blog enemies on TV (like Huffington and Kos and Andrew Sullivan) and wanted back in. That is the dead horse I keep beating.

      • Claytonia Sibirica says:

        we shall have to agree to disagree then.

        Still, the wheres and whys are a good endless source of speculation!

    • ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

      @voltaire’s crack

      The whole quote is pasted in by Chuck from one of his new apostles blogs praising the victory of justice that his racial expedition into the heart of darkness at produced.

      “nutpicking” comes from that devotee.

  14. Emperor says:

    This might have been posted before, but the irony is too strong for me not to copy this comment….. In one of the Fox News comment stories…..

    Charles Johnson Mon, Feb 13, 2012 12:11:23pm 2

    re: #26 Gus

    Hah. Look how many comments are “removed” in that thread.

  15. Voltaires Crack says:

    John Difool :
    Oh for the love of God that is so pathetic! For a second I thought I was reading Renfield professing his love for his master, Dracula.
    Oh and yes, Hoops you most definitely got outed. You were caught dead to rights sockpuppeting AoS with racist comments, your I.p. matced with your hashtag you had commented under numerous times through the years.

    Only a masochist could love such a narcissist.

  16. swamprat says:

    charles sent them over to Amazon to post reports trashing Gelllers’ book before it was published, and now they expect people to think they take the high road?


    • ISTE says:

      That is worth doing as an article here, just to show how dishonest Johnson is.

      (looking in the tanks…)

      • livefreeor die says:

        Make sure to tweet it to his new-found friends.

      • ISTE says:


        Geller Loses It (Again): LGF is ‘Infected with the Poison of Evil’
        Your hilariously incoherent Geller rant of the day
        Charles Johnson
        Wingnuts • Wed Aug 3, 2011 at 2:21 pm PDT • Views: 36,893
        Here’s anti-Muslim lunatic Pamela Geller with steam shooting out of her ears, spewing paranoia in all directions, because I … gasp! … pointed out the public Amazon page for her new book (and its similarity to the manifesto of Oslo terrorist Anders Behring Breivik): LITTLE GREEN ASTROTURDS!!!!!!! – Atlas Shrugs

        Atlas readers, you must have a look at this — thanks to Snowcrash for alerting me to yet another attempt by the well-paid operative plant chuckie cheezy to smear and defame my work. How this assclown can encourage people to write reviews when it’s not even in stores boggles the rational mind. But he is not well; he is infected with the poison of evil.

        My new book, Stop the Islamization of America: A Practical Guide to the Resistance, is the most important contribution I have made to this terrible fight we are in to save our civilization. Buy it, read it and pass it on. Every American needs to read it amd [sic] commit the strategy to memory. It’s America’s game plan to victory. I expect vicious attacks on me and the book. Pure hell. I don’t care, as long as people read it.

        The shrieking harpy certainly doesn’t lack self-esteem.

        UPDATE at 8/3/11 3:31:50 pm
        Don’t forget — you can add tags to Geller’s book at Amazon, and vote up existing tags such as “hate speech.” Here’s that page again: Stop the Islamization of America: A Practical Guide to the Resistance.[ ]

        (Currently the #1 result at Amazon for the tag hate speech.)

        LGF: The Shrieking Harpy Rant Generator

        Yep “Don’t forget — you can add tags to Geller’s book at Amazon, and vote up existing tags such as “hate speech.”

        That sounds an ethical thing for people to do, add tags to a book they could not possibly have read because it wasn’t available then.


        (Notice this Publication Date: September 6, 2011, date of Charles “ethical” Johnson’s post Wed Aug 3, 2011)

      • ISTE says:

        Bagua! I screwed up the blockquotes!

      • ISTE says:

        The blockquote under
        LGF: The Shrieking Harpy Rant Generator
        should be a close blockquote.

      • ISTE says:

        Thanks buddy!

      • Claytonia Sibirica says:

        So is that different than false flagging then?

      • ISTE says:


        I am not surprised that new people here can’t find the old stuff, I certainly have extreme difficulty! *burp* but I think I know the reason for that some nights…

      • Bunk X says:

        I can’t find shit here. We need a stalker site to archive it.

  17. ThreeHundred says:

    So this was before he started using those snarky secondary titles.

    • ISTE says:

      The snarky secondary titles were there for a while but hidden as meta tags.

      He is doing it to get two bites of the search engine cherry so to speak.

      Quite often the “snark” is opposite to the main title if you see what I mean. I don’t think Google is programmed to reject snark, yet.

  18. Claytonia Sibirica :

    on the tech side, the ‘memory hole’ is made up of posts and threads that he’s tried to destroy or hide, right?

    Yes we always invite readers to use the “daily archives” feature on LGF and go back to the date of the thread. If you do, you’ll see those surrounding threads (“peace creeps” and “vigorous diplomatic exchange”), but this thread won’t be there. If you examine the thread urls, you’ll notice that #6276 is missing.

    A while back, we noted that the exact size of the memory hole (# of missing threads) can be determined by any visitor by examining the “show all entries” feature under tools/info in the sidebar. If you take the ID number of the current thread ( and subtract the number of articles that it shows in “show all entries” (39,620), you get 297 missing threads in the sequence.

    And thanks to the Great Strawberry Heist™, we know what, where, and when for all of them. 😉

    • Claytonia Sibirica says:

      See I thought that’s what it was, just wanted to be absolutely sure.

    • Claytonia Sibirica says:

      now I’m curious too, has he ever specifically responded to this or does he just ignore it?

      • He’s offered up his rationale for some of them, like the Fjordman threads and those about the Flight 93 Memorial, but for most of them (like this one) they’re just silently disappeared at some point.

        The really funny ones are those we’ve labeled as a “thread vanishing event”, whereas the thread disappeared right before the eyes of the lizards. These usually involved Johnson posting something especially boneheaded (like year-old news, or the hilarious assertion that the Ohio State Flag was an Obama concoction).

  19. ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

    Charles was for memory holes before he was against them.

    • ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

      Actually, he was against them when used them, THEN he was for them before being against them today at

      (I could graph the complexities of “Chuckie’s logic” but, alas, the computer needed to run the CAD app to fully capture such has yet to be built).

  20. livefreeor die says:

    It’s almost time for Chuck to play another song by Whitney Houston that you can get at Amazon. He was SUCH a fan of hers…

  21. garycooper says:

    In regards to a discussion above, Chunky’s blog was headed for the ditch before he went full-on moonbat. He had initiated the process earlier, with his petulant pursuit of Pamela, and the purge that followed. His paranoia was running rampant, already. He had begun participating in too many threads, and showing his nasty, dishonest personality all too clearly. The PJM deal was another slap at his pride, and seemed to spur along his descent into…well, what he is now.

  22. garycooper says:

    livefreeor die :It’s almost time for Chuck to play another song by Whitney Houston that you can get at Amazon. He was SUCH a fan of hers…

    I wonder if the search-wizards could find out just how many times he mentioned Houston previous to her last days, and how many of those mentions (if any) were nasty snark like the one quoted above.

    • ISTE says:

      We did, and he mentioned her just twice in his comments.

      09059167 38536 6 Charles Mon, May 9, 2011 6:03:07pm

      In other news, I know everyone’s shocked to hear that Whitney Houston is back in rehab.

      and 5 comments later on the same thread.

      09059172 38536 11 Charles Mon, May 9, 2011 6:08:25pm

      re: #10 albusteve

      the very best National Anthem I ever heard at a big event…the NBA All Star Game maybe…it was a doozie

      At the beginning of her career, Whitney Houston was so good it was scary. It’s sad to see someone squander a talent that huge.

      That is it in comments.
      However, I did save a really juicy strawberry all for myself.

      Saddam’s Favorite Themes
      Charles Johnson
      Oct 13, 2002 at 3:51 pm PDT

      Here’s a great new Mark Steyn column, on Saddam’s sham election and his odd choice for a “campaign” theme song: Saddam’s Favorite Themes.

      Well, I knew this would happen. Saddam Hussein has finally got hold of a Weapon of Mass Destruction. In a dispatch on Tuesday’s presidential election in Iraq, the Times of London reports:

      ”Party officials have chosen the Whitney Houston song ‘I Will Always Love You’ as the campaign theme tune. The song accompanies the dawn-to-dusk election broadcasts on the three state-controlled television stations, which feature almost continuous footage of Saddam.”

      What a guy. All over Baghdad, folks are switching on the radio and there’s Whitney ululating ”I will always love you-oo-oooaahooeauooooeeeuoaaaoooo … ” And, all over Baghdad, folks in the next apartment are sighing, ”Terrific. Saddam’s got those Shiites at No. 23 wired up to the cattle prods again. Might as well forget about getting any sleep tonight.”

      Now Charles didn’t write the unkind things about Whitney Houston, but he thinks the column article is great.

      • garycooper says:

        Thanks — that’s about what I thought. Next to no interest in the fading diva, until he sees an opportunity to race-bait with her death.

        That was a rather funny joke by Steyn there, comparing the overproduced, over-the-top ululations of Whitney to the sounds produced by Saddam’s torturing Shiites. Not as hilarious in light of what just happened, but you know…she did tend to emote.

  23. Hey weird! Back in December, the subtraction gave me 296, and today, we get 297. Did I screw something up, or did CJ disappear another thread?

  24. ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

    457 Charles Sun, Jun 8, 2008 4:58:02pm

    Interesting that the Obamatons haven’t deleted the “Jemaah Islamiya” blog yet. They must be cool with that one.

  25. garycooper says:

    What a coup it would be, if Chunky could get Mama Sheehan doing a regular page on his site. Maybe he could jumpstart her political career, or take her out for dinner and a movie…who knows where it could lead?

  26. ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

    Where ideas come from …

    588 Charles Sun, Jun 8, 2008 12:29:50pm

    Get a load of this — they removed the page from the Obama site. So I went to the Coral link — and it’s gone from there too.
    And now the Obama site is preventing Google caching as well.
    They’re trying to make sure that when they throw a post down the memory hole, it stays there.

    593 Charles Sun, Jun 8, 2008 12:31:09pm

    It’s not at the Internet Archive either.

    • garycooper says:

      “Get a load of this,” he says. That’s rich, eh? 😆

      You’re a load, Chunky. A wide load. A wide pant-load.

  27. garycooper says:

    Listening to some of her hits again just now, I think I know why I wasn’t that into her music. It was all beautifully over-produced. I prefer music with a rawer sound. Too bad she didn’t make it to the point in her career where she decided to strip it down to the basics, and maybe do smoky blues in a club, with a good piano. The idea is laughable in her case, so far from what she was about, but it would have been epic if they did the right songs. Before she destroyed her voice completely, that is. By the time she and Bobby were showing themselves on their ill-considered reality show, you could hear in her crack-smoker’s voice that it was too late,

  28. On-topic, I know this probably goes without saying, but it would appear that Johnson has since gotten over his disgust for Captain America, to eventually feature a half dozen or so of the comics proudly displayed on the site:

  29. Pig says:

    I would just like to say that I am not related to “piglet.” No way / no how.

    I have never read Captain America in my life.

  30. doppelganger says:

    just checked in to register a sock, and noticed that the front page article from earlier in the day about Fox Deleting comments has a total of 79 comments!!

    I can remember back in the day when a hot topic thread like that would have 79 comments in about 10 minutes


  31. ZappaWouldBeVomiting says:

    From doing work for Fox News to doing work for MMFA …

    What a career.

    139 Charles Thu, Oct 2, 2008 5:22:02pm

    re: #111 David IV of Georgia

    In other news:

    Green Party presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney claims the Department of Defense executed 5,000 prisoners with one bullet to the head and then dumped their bodies in a Louisiana swamp during Hurricane Katrina.

    Fox News is using LGF as an unpaid and uncredited research assistant quite often these days.

  32. Bunk X says:

    The lizards were all bitching about offensive comments on a Fox News Whitney Houston story, reposting them for all to enjoy, and then Sergey shows up with a socknic that gets a pass.

    195 Floral Giraffe Mon, Feb 13, 2012 9:46:37pm

    re: #189 I’m Ronery Dear Reader, Hear Me ROR

    OK, upding just for the nic!

  33. Bagua says:

    3rd Ward

    – Showtyme

  34. Flouncy McDownding says:

    This could be cool …

  35. Wahaha says:

    You have to do a recap of the Tennessee fiasco. That was the funniest crazyness evah.

    • OldLineTexan says:

      Jack Blanchard and Misty Morgan could re-do one of their hits for Stalker Charles. It would be titled “Tennessee Turd Walk”.

    • garycooper says:

      Tennessee was a beautiful gem of comedic brilliance, but I think his work on the Weiner Escapade will ultimately be recognized as his greatest laughingstock-failblogger moment. I mean, the way he totally misread the initial story, jumped in with an alternative-reality fantasy, stayed stupid long after even his crustiest cohorts on the fringe-left realized Weiner was exposed, tried to muddy the waters by saying he couldn’t be sure the “average-sized erection” (thanks, Lewd-Wank) wasn’t his own…am I missing anything? I just remember laughing quietly to myself for days, relishing his hotdogging folly.

      Can he ever top that one? It’s difficult to imagine. Oh, he’ll have his skull-fucked moments, he has them every day, but a treasure like Weiner doesn’t come along very often. If Rathergate was his greatest moment as a successful, sane blogger, and I think most would agree that it was despite the fact he falsely claimed the scoop as his own, Weinergate was just as classic in its own right. Pity his traffic and blogging-significance had already cratered so massively by then, that his contribution to the overall scandal registered only here, and with those who chuckled over his tweet-war with Breitbart.

      Still, we dig ya, Chunky. We really do. 😆

  36. OldLineTexan says:

    Claytonia Sibirica :
    we shall have to agree to disagree then.
    Still, the wheres and whys are a good endless source of speculation!

    I read that as “whores and whys” and thought Loodie had returned to us from his diaspora.

    Signed “Disappointed”

  37. garycooper says:

    Lewd-Crank has taken himself from us. We shall not see his like again, I fear. 😥

  38. garycooper says:

    Unless…is it possible that Clayton… 😯

  39. OldLineTexan says:

    garycooper :
    Unless…is it possible that Clayton…